But there have been quite a number of other scholars however who believe that Ur city was not Ur of the Chaldees, most of whom favour locating Ur of the Chaldees rather somewhere in the north of Iraq instead (Urfa being the most popular tho unlikely specificly nomiated site).
There are a number of arguements against the Ur city/southern view, and in favour of north:
-> Ur city too far from Haran. (They reply that ancients did make long distance travels.)
-> Big long round-about up-and-down route (incld up Balih to Haran) (desert less harsh in anc/prehist than now). (They reply that they did so probably to avoid possibly hostile places, &/or that desert was as harsh then, and/or that they only had to follow established routes.)
-> Ur was on (west side of) Euphrates river (and Haran was on east side, requiring 2nd unmentioned crossing) re Josh 14:2/Eber/Hebrew. (Though they reply that Wooley said Euphrates previously "washed the foot of the western rampart, [ie Ur on east] taking a new course to the east", and/or that "for anyone living in the Levant, Babylonian Ur would have lain conceptually beyond the river, whatever the precise geography.")
-> Descriptive ("of Chaldees") unnecessary for major/known cities. (They say necessary define/identify/clarify/explanation/designation "reflecting the renewed eminence of this Ur under the Neo-Babylonians or Chaldeans".)
-> Josephus quoting Nicolaus of Damascus says "Abram ... came ... out of the land above Babylon, called the land of the Chaldeans ....", above implies either Zagros or upper/north Mesopotamia (Tigris) (unless he was using Egyptian 'up' for south). (They reply that there was high land in Arabia on sw of Chaldea, &/or Ur was tel.)
-> Abra(ha)m said that he was from/land his fathers was Padan-Aram/Aram-Naharaim in Gen 24:4 combined with Gen 24:10 and 25:20 etc cp Gen 12:1, same words used in Gen 11:28; Abraham was "an Arimi ready to perish" Deuteronomy 26:5. (They reply that translation implies Harran was his & his father's adopted land, and/or was the land of his relatives not ancestors.)
-> Hebrews (like Maoris) not acquainted with cities/houses (except from Enoch/Babel/Egypt/Canaan/Ur?) (Though they reply that some studies claim they were, and/or that there were Semite nomads around Ur city, &/or Abram may have afterward become nomad/shepherd.)
-> The contention that it took Abraham great faith to go from a "good" (comfort/secure) urban city/civilisation to the "bad" rural country is not necessarily correct, it could take equal/more faith to leave 'good' (healthy/community/) country home (&/or to go to 'bad' city). (Semites were around not in Ur city.)
-> Hebrew Genesis says Ur [ha]-Kasdim not Ur "of the Chaldees" tho Greek Acts does say Chaldees. (They reply that Kasdim always corresps to/used elsewhere in bible for Chaldeans (from Chaldees~Aramaeans~Kesed) [tho Chaldees v-v not always called Kasdim], and no ha-). To comment that they different books/authors/times they reply whole bible is late/anachronism.
-> If Moses wrote genesis (as attest by JC himself) then Chaldees not at Ur in his (or Abram's) time (Moses came after Kesed). (They reply that Chaldees/whole bible is anachronism/late, &/or that moses was 18th or 19th dyn.)
-> Chaldean never specifically/directly attached/connected to Ur city in history. (They reply Ur was incld within/on boundary of land possessed by Chaldeans.)
-> No trace/tradition of Abram in Ur city records (the Jews who lived in Babylonia did not know the site). (They reply means nothing much, &/or that in Josephus Ur is obviously Ur city.)
-> In Septuagint, Gen 11:28-31 & Acts 7:2-4 Ur is (only) called a land/country (not a city) (tho in those verses it was not the Ur name itself which was necessarily called the "land/country"), no land of Ur in south except Ki-uru/Akkad. (They reply that Ur was kingdom/city-state/hinter-land/supreme.)
-> In Gen 11:28-31 where it says Terah took Abram, Lot & Sarah with him from Ur it doesn't say that Nahor went with them. Nahor's son is later located at Nahur city, and Nahor's grandson is later located at Harran.
-> 3rd dyn Ur may be too late for Abram who lived only (1)400 yrs after the flood & at the start of history just after longevity (cp Brahmins). (They reply that Ur was around in Early Dynastic Period/is 2nd earliest Ur name.)
-> Ur (city) is less correct rendering of Urim(a)/Uru/Urummu/Hur/Uri(w)a. (They reply Ur is correct.)
-> Acts 7:2 says Abram from [Roman province of] Mesopotamia (OT Aram-Naharaim/Padan-Aram) which was north not south Mesopotamia. (They reply Roman province established after Acts written, and Greek Mesopotamia included south.)
-> If Kasdim was an anachronism then why did text say Kasdim not Chaldees/Kaldu/Shinar/Babylonia to make more clearer. (They reply Kasdim always elsewhere Hebrew for Kaldu.)
-> Names of Patriarchs, Abram's/Terah's ancestors/relatives (Nahor, Haran, Ragau, Arphaxad, Shem, Eber, Serug, Terah, Kesed, Aram) all found in north/middle (Mari/Ebla) not around Ur city. (They say irrelevant, they say some late, they say some unrelated names/accidental, they say some anachronisms.)
-> Kasdim = Kesed son of Nahor in north/mid (or = Arphaxad). (They say they migrated, &/or geographical/transfered/analogy.)
-> Why did they stop at Haran but not any other equally impressive places like Mari? (They say not on route (hostile/harsh), &/or Ur and Haran common religion.)
-> Terah/Abram left/fled (Jud 5:6) Ur situation so why (follow known route &) settle in similar/related Haran situation (religon, allied, etc). (They say they stoped there because similar/related situation.)
-> Biblical Chaldeans were Aramaic/Syriac, (they say Chaldeans & Arameans of records [sometimes] different).
-> Ezekiel says land Chaldeans by Kebar river, (they say Kebar was [part of Euphrates at Babylon]).
-> Kabbala has Abram saying "as a child ... I spent much time jesting with the young men of the mtns of Urartu...."
-> Ockham's razor.
-> Abraham "the Hebrew/Aberite" (Gen 14:13) "from Aber a naher (Aber the river)" which some say
that can't be from Heber/Eber, Habiru, "the other side of the flood" [or perates ("cross/pass over", Sept)], could perhaps be cognate with river/province Khaburatum/Habur/Kebar/Hubur?
-> Jewish Talmud relates that Terah worshipped many/12 gods (Tribes, Zodiac, Teraphim?), there were not such number of gods worshiped at Ur city.
-> Josephus said "in ... Ur ... his (Haran's) monument is shown to this day", has it been found at Ur city or recorded there?
-> "Ram caught in thicket" at Ur city is otherwise called the "goat with the tree of life/(cross)".
North/early "Chaldea/Chaldee" names:
- Chaldeans/Chaldees/Chaldini/Khaldini/Chaldaei (sw Babylonia on Persian gulf bordering Arabia Desert & sthn district Gerrha/Kuwait, Strabo/C Ptolemy, moon/stars, 5 tribes).
- Celts/Galatians.
- (K)haldi (Urartian ram deity).
- Khaldi-Ziuquni (Urartian city).
- Khaljis/Ghilzais (Afghan tribe).
- Khalitu (to west of Urartians)/Xalitu (Urartians country, foreign/Urartian, cuneiform, Rusa 2, 676 BC).
- Khalita (province Assyrian/Mari).
- Kelti (wadi Amarna letters).
- Khaldaioi/Chaldios/xald?a/Chaldia/Chaldaei (Black sea/nth Assyria/Armenia/Carduchian/east Turkey, Greeks/Persian, Cyrus/Xenophon, Cyropaedia/Anabasis).
- Cordyaeans/Gordyene/Carduchian/Curid/Cordene /Kurd/Kardu(m)/Gordyeaen/Gordian/Gordea (mt(ns)).
- Khal (Tigris)/Khar (Syria-Palestine, Egyptian recs).
- Karthli (Georgian).
- Kesed/Kasdim (
- Kassites
- kshatriyas (warrior caste, Indian)
- Pikhat Khusetu sha Khashidia/uru nam khu-si-e-tum sha khash-di-ia (Babylonian texts, Nebuchadnezzar)
- Khosrau/Chosroes/Osrohene (
- Khazar
- Yezidi
- Kurd
1 comment:
Here is some words for thought. The word Chaldee did not appear in history until the middle to end of the Neo-Assyrian period. Chaldee was a derivation of the Aramaic tongue and it was not widely spread up until the end of the Neo-Assyrian Period to the reign of the Neo-Babylonian Period (Chaldee speaking Babylonians). During the middle to end of the Neo-Assyrian Period Chaldeans and Elamites struggled to gain control of Babylonia and eventually succeeded. I can see that you were already somewhat familiar with this:
"-> Descriptive ("of Chaldees") unnecessary for major/known cities. (They say necessary define/identify/clarify/explanation/designation "reflecting the renewed eminence of this Ur under the Neo-Babylonians or Chaldeans".)"
With that in mind the word used in the bible had to have been a later addition because it didn't exist (nor did the language) during the time of Moses.
Now to get into details of Ur. This is an interesting one. Now in a previous conversation I understand that you are not a believer of the Documentary Hypothesis (although I am) but are you at least a believer that the text of the Bible may have gone through some changes during the course of time? Such changes which can result in contradictions? I will stick with Ur as an example for this. What I have been alluding to is that certain texts in the Bible do not place Abraham's city of origin at Ur but instead Haran which had eventually been edited to Ur in later dates as to help with the flow of the story as a whole.
We have the first mention of Abram/Abraham's native land. This case being Ur:
Ge. 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
Now we have Abraham attempting to get his servant to go back to Abraham's original homeland to find a wife (Rebekah) from his house for his chosen son Isaac. What this chapter leaves out is where he went to, some would assume Ur until chapter 27 of Genesis.
Ge. 24:2 And Abraham said unto his servant, the elder of his house, that ruled over all that he had: 'Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh.
Ge. 24:3 And I will make thee swear by YHWH, the God of heaven and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife for my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell.
Ge. 24:4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son, even for Isaac.'
Ge. 24:29 And Rebekah had a brother, and his name was Laban; and Laban ran out unto the man, unto the fountain.
Ge. 24:37 And my master made me swear, saying: Thou shalt not take a wife for my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I dwell.
Ge. 24:38 But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son.
When Rebekah has her son Jacob run off to her homeland (where Abraham's servant went to get a wife for Isaac) to hide from his brother Esau we are told that her homeland is Haran and not Ur.
Ge. 27:42 And the words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah; and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him: 'Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, purposing to kill thee.
Ge. 27:43 Now therefore, my son, hearken to my voice; and arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran;
In the light of the Documentary Hypothesis this anomaly makes a whole lot of sense. But what explanation could be offered if presented with the belief in a Mosaic authorship. One possible answer is that the text may have been altered overtime. Now while tradition holds that scribes copied everything word by word without changing any text we have proven that this is not true. Comparative and orthographical analysis of the Hebrew text show that changes were made in not only words and phrases used (over time) but also spelling. Great examples can be seen with what was recovered from Qumran. To even analytical studies between the Masoretic, Samaritan and Septuagintal Pentateuchs. Moses or not, at one point the Book of Genesis indicates that Abraham may have originally come from Haran and not Ur. But why the change? Well in my second book I cover details to why the scribe would choose Haran with a possible clue as to why a later scribe would be Ur. It all has to do with timeframe of composition and the world surrounding the scribe; from politics to faith.
This whole comment is not meant to dismiss anyone's faith but instead get them to think about it. Please let me hear others' opinions on this.
Petros Koutoupis
www.petroskoutoupis.com
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